With each trade of a fan-favorite player, you can always count on the same recycled comments to hit social media posts.
"The Dolans are the worst owners in baseball!"
"They never want to pay players when they hit free agency!"
"They're always looking to save money instead of trying to improve the team!"
I'm sure you're all familiar. You've probably bought in and thrown them out yourself on occasion. I'm guilty myself. After the Gimenez trade this week and seeing yet another wave of this sentiment for arguably a great baseball move, it really got me thinking: how often DOES this actually happen? Is this mindset a fair criticism or is it a bogeyman the fans have built in their minds? How many of the moves have we actually grown to regret with the benefit of hindsight?
I decided to dig deep into all the rosters of every team since the Dolans purchased the team in 2000. 25 years worth of players, in search for every instance where the fans were rightfully outraged, and conversely, every instance where the team's moves were ultimately justified.
The criteria are simple:
1. Has to be a player who accumulated at least a solid resume in Cleveland (I used 10 bWAR as a baseline).
2. Has to be a player who departed Cleveland before age 35. (I feel it's perfectly reasonable to not expect the team to re-sign a guy over 35. This DQ's players like Lofton, Vizquel, Hafner, Santana, etc for reference)
THE BIG REGRETS (20+ career bWAR after leaving):
-Manny Ramirez (39.3)
-CC Sabathia (34.3)
-Cliff Lee (26.4)
-Jim Thome (25.7)
-Bartolo Colon (23.5)
-Francisco Lindor (21.5, active)
These are the only 6 names that I think fans can truly point to emphatically and say we missed out on greatness. Ramirez and Thome obviously both stand out here. The only ones to truly leave in free agency. Both could've been legends in Cleveland more than they already were. Both were in the first few years of Dolan ownership. Both were offered deals but ultimately left for more money elsewhere. I'm sure we all feel some type of way about them.
The other 4 were all traded for pretty incredible packages. Even Cliff Lee who was "only" traded for Carlos Carrasco, Carrasco (21.4) and Lee (26.4) weren't really that far apart, production wise, in subsequent years. Arguably all 4 of those trades were close to break even or better in value.
THE MODEST DISAPPOINTMENTS (5-20 career bWAR after leaving):
-Jhonny Peralta (15.0)
-Victor Martinez (13.7)
-Shin-Soo Choo (13.2)
-Michael Brantley (10.3)
-Asdrubal Cabrera (9.0)
-Casey Blake (8.8)
-Yan Gomes (6.5)
-Trevor Bauer (5.3)
Bet you didn't expect to see Peralta above Victor on this list. I feel there are several names in this section that people will argue hard for, but in reality, I don't think those players were as productive after leaving as we've convinced ourselves they were. Victor was plagued by injuries and mostly relegated to DH status which hurt his overall value. Brantley also had trouble staying healthy and ultimately retired sooner than I think he wanted to. Asdrubal was traded to make way for Lindor, which I don't think people can complain about. Bauer obviously dug his own grave with his actions, culminating with a ball chucked over the CF fence. With hindsight now, almost all these moves were totally justified, and I don't think the value per dollar was there on them if we had re-signed them.
DODGED BULLETS (< 5 career bWAR after leaving):
-Mike Clevinger (4.5)
-Corey Kluber (1.6)
-Jake Westbrook (1.0)
-Jason Kipnis (0.8)
-Grady Sizemore (0.1)
-Carlos Carrasco (-2.1, includes return trip to CLE)
Scroll back up and look at the trade hauls for some of these guys. Absolutely nuts. We traded Clevinger for WHO? And I still recall the fanbase being pretty upset thar he was dealt. Looking back now, none of these guys warrant a single tear (except for maybe Grady's career just self destructing). Kluber got a no-hitter, bless his heart, but I don't think many of us would trade Clase for that.
TBD:
-Andres Gimenez
And we've come full circle. How far up this list will be ultimately climb? Only time will tell.
I included a few extra guys at the bottom for context because I also hear their names mentioned in this context, but I don't think they fit the bill for the theme of this analysis.
If anyone wants to discuss any other names that I may have left off, feel free. If you made it this far reading, I genuinely appreciate it. This was fun to put together.
TL;DR – There have only been SIX players in the 25 years that he Dolans have owned the team that fans should be rightfully upset that we didn't sign long term (and arguably, the 4 of those 6 that were traded were at least net break-even trades).
30 comments
Nice try, Dolan’s nephew learning excel
Yes they are cheap
More so given that they’re what the 5th or 6th richest owners in the MLB
They are extremely cheap
hitting a missing on trading players is not a good indication of an owner being cheap or not. It’s not spending any money in the off-season and not attempting to keep players that have proven track records.
Could you do this with free agents/trades under Jacob’s ownership?
This was a lot of work, thanks for doing it! Haven’t heard a couple of these names in a long time…
I think the main issue is that when Cleveland was fantastic from about ’95-03, they were top 5 in payroll every year. The dollar amounts have changed, but so has Cleveland’s position as soon as the Dolan’s took over.
Spending money doesn’t guarantee championships, but it helps a fan base understand that at least the ownership is trying. From the moment the Dolans took over, they’ve hoped the fans will spend more time hating “big markets” than asking how much bigger and how much more money Cleveland had 30 years ago than now.
They’ve spent less than half of the *league average* payroll as often as not.
Certainly interesting data, but the “Dolans are cheap” narrative extends beyond the sub-case of not spending to keep proven performers around. Arguably, the bigger issue is that they do not allot the front office sufficient money to spend on free agents and the like when a competitive window is open without the FO having to thread the needle perfectly.
It’s not just their own players they don’t resign. It’s the lack of spending in free agency. Look at their payroll. Yes, they’re cheap as fuck.
Yeah…this doesn’t work. Sure, that’s 6 really good players leaving (and a bunch of solid ones). Jose would be #7 if he didn’t take the deal that he did. But you’re excluding TONS that we were never even in on (trades and FA) because of money. Or how he legit cries poor as a billionaire owner of a billion dollar team and expects us to feel bad for him. Or how many years we spend playing young guys who never pan out solely because we don’t pay an established player to fill the role.
Look across the league and how other teams approach these things, we’re in the bottom tier of payroll every year despite a great winning % in his time owning the team. Who’s the last solid vet player that we’ve signed, Encarnacion? You can’t tell me that more investment couldn’t have led to a World Series win in their time here. THAT is cheap.
I appreciate the effort put into this, and mostly agree with what you’re saying, but I’ll give my 2 cents.
Michael Brantley. The man was the heart and souls of this team and for a lot of people, their favorite player. I’m 28 years old, outside maybe Kwan, have I ever witnessed an OF give his sustained production? We can’t just view it in a vacuum. Brantley was the best OFer I’ve really gotten to watch and appreciate who was still capable of good years, and was too expensive at 2Y/$32M. That’s criminal. It’s one thing like in the Asdrubal Cabrera trade where we have adequate replacements, but this franchise can’t develop an OFer to save their life. After leaving Cleveland, he gave Houston 3 excellent years, and then the injuries got bad and he retired. Cleveland 1000% should’ve given him the contract Houston gave him.
I would also say that while you do have it marked as Big Regrets, it really doesn’t do it justice how much it sucks watching literal Cy Young guys in CC and Cliff Lee leave, and a perennial top 10 MVP guy in Lindor leave. Players drafted and developed by this organization getting bounced in their prime years. It’s devastating as a fan knowing that all our superstars besides Jose leave for other markets.
Go to bed you’re drunk
I’ve heard some bitterness about Diaz, but to be completely fair he did take another 4, really 5 years to turn into what he currently is, so it’s not like they traded away someone who was on the fast track or a burgeoning star. I don’t feel as bad with him considering how it took him that long after the fact
Given that he was blacklisted from the game a year and a half later, I’d say that Trevor Bauer is “dodged a bullet”.
#Y E S
Honestly thought I’d see Travis Hafner on here – must’ve just missed the cut
They’re both cheap and generally well-run. I concede big name free agents aren’t coming but I don’t think signing middle tier starting caliber guys is too much to ask.
V Mart was the final straw for me.
When a grown millionaire is legitimately crying on the podium because *CLEVELAND couldn’t*…
I mean, Victor was legitimately crying
Figures, that the same class that sell trickle down economics, think fans should be excited over a $40million dollar MLB roster. Just keep waiting, with your mouths open, for the World Series Trophies to *trickle down*
Bro, you put in a TON of effort just to be wrong.
Definitely cheap, have never at the beginning of the season put together a true contender. Its easy to look back at trades and see good value but they are never true contenders because they never pay the price it takes to be good
We can look at every move and see the baseball logic. I can justify moving Gimenez even if $$ is not a concern. His offense was an easy improvement with a player like Brito being league average. And, if that was the route to get a 1B PIT wanted, and Ortiz was your target I get it.
But, we also know a team like even Milwaukee keeps Gimenez, and doesn’t have to move him.
So yes, Cleveland making smart baseball moves isn’t just an owner is cheap thing, but an owner with more $$ doesn’t force you into finding good baseball reasons to move on some of these guys.
I’m not going to comment on the Dolan aspect of this as others have already done that. But, while I understand your intent of looking at post-Cleveland bWAR, I don’t agree with the “pain meter”. For example, I don’t think anyone would say they have huge regrets over trading Bartolo, as it ultimately netted us Cliff Lee (CY winner) and Sizemore (perennial MVP candidate who could have been a HOFer if injuries hadn’t derailed him).
That said – Appreciate you compiling this list, very cool to see!
Are they cheap with no mention of how much they put into their pocket through these trades 😂😂😂
I’m probably one of their biggest defenders and even I’ll say they’re cheap. To be clear, by one of their biggest defenders I mean there are very few owners id rather have own the team.
They do and amazing job at hiring front office staff that create a culture that players and coaches love and the results speak for themselves. If they spent league average every year, we’d be perennial world series contenders. Can imagine if they gave our front office staff and coaches the budget the average team has?
The fact that they don’t spend pisses me off, even if I’m glad they are able to put consistent winners on the field
should be spending more generally speaking not just on certain guys. Jose’s contract is a crime
Yes, they are.
The Bartolo Colon trade was a massive haul
I don’t think it’s fair to say “cheap” except for the cancellation of guardfeast. I think it fair to say that we don’t spend what the large market teams spend in order to position themselves to win a World Series. We have to sign young players for long term deals and hope they pan out every 10 years. NVM Dolonschnickel it is. Switches and prospects it is for us.
I really hope you’re like 14. If so I respect you’re passion
I actually can’t blame the Dolans for the 2016 epic collapse in the WS. Since then though they haven’t really impressed. I feel like we should be able to sign a Nate Eovaldi, Walker Buehler, or even a Wily Adames type player. I think ownership views them as completely unrealistic. We have to rely so much on luck every season.
Huh. The Gimenz trade is still fruit falling from the Bartolommeo Colon tree. Hope it continues to grow.